Actually, fewer than 5% of working Americans make $125K per year. Assuming a 40 year professional career, a vet would make about $5 million in his lifetime. Maybe they don’t get rich quick, but they do get rich.

They do have to work to earn their keep, which seems to be the major complaint among vets. Gosh, ain’t it awful. The poor dears.

“As for veterinarians … wow, they must be stupid to go into veterinary medicine if they want to get rich. They compete for relatively few spots in veterinary schools, study medicine for eight to 10 years and end up with hundreds of thousands of dollars in student debt when they get out. If they can find a job, it’s for a salary that barely covers those debt payments and basic living expenses.”

Just to debunk the commonly held myth that vets are impoverished — please see:

http://www.vetecon.com/vetec/d.....215/i1.jpg

According to this, the national average income for practice owners is over $124k. That’s not on a par with physician salaries, but only about 25k behind human General Practitioners.

Although “staff” vets only average about 75K, many vets own their practices.

Also, these are NATIONAL averages — not averages for wealthier urban areas.

Vets who own their own businesses in wealthier urban areas, like the one I live in, can easily clear well over 200k a year.

I’m not saying 75k, or even 125k, is “RICH” but it AIN’T POVERTY.

From accounts I’ve seen, the serious breeders will sometimes spend several years studying genetic charts and bloodlines before arranging a mating to breed pure bred pets.

By all rights, they should be the strongest supporters of legislation restricting the wholesale breeding of so called pure breeds. Unfortunately, there’s almost a knee jerk reaction against anything along those lines, even though a truly “responsible” breeder would be virtually unaffected by such legislation.

The puppy mill type operations and those who buy a boy and a girl to pop out an occasional litter for extra income, would obviously balk at any restrictions, but those are probably the biggest contributors to the problem in the first place.

Winograd’s approach makes sense in places, but doesn’t in others. First of all, dangerous breed issues, without arguing the merits pro or con, are irrelevant to no kill and over population. He’s shooting himself in the foot on a side issue, with a position that basically amounts to endorsing dog bites.

The biggest flaw is his belief no kill, or more accurately low kill, can be accomplished without supporting legislation. The problem is endemic. It can’t be changed by randomly creating little pockets of favorable sentiment on a hit or miss basis. Model legislation on a state wide basis, someplace where sentiment is on his side, would be his smallest possible target. If he could demonstrate success at that level, with practical solutions, viable enforcement, and economically feasible programs and benefits, other states would quickly follow suit.

IMO, California would be about as good a place to take a shot at it as any. The proposal the California legislature was considering last year, while arguably flawed, created a lot of awareness of the issues involved. Among other things, it’s an initiative state, so it is something within reach of a grassroots effort. Draft your proposal, collect your signatures, and if you’ve done it right, the people will decide in your favor.

Simply stated, the goal has to be zero pet population growth, at a level equal to demand for pets. While Winograd doesn’t quite put it that way, he appears to be aware of the fact you can’t place more pets than there are homes to place them in.

A big part of that is putting restrictions on the commercial production of pets - at all levels of the pet production industry.

I appreciated your comments here since they were polite and unbiased as far as having no vested interest in this issue money wise. I don’t think that you ‘pontificated’ at all.

Now as far as what is called ‘hobby breeders’ being upset by some of these laws, I wonder have they ever lobbied for an exemption based on their tax records getting written into these laws? That should be easy to prove hobby status that way.
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(And, Anonymous, I don’t see anything here that warranted the response you got to your comments. Sorry to see that. I hope Nathan Winograd is nicer than that himself and secure enough in his beliefs to communicate in a more positive way. Bullying makes me leery of people.)
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Yeah, I am anonymous because that Gina is one mean mama! Saw the reign of terror on her own blog. I do think that Itchmo should have stepped in on this one.

Is murdering a healthy human animal a “humane” act of kindness, if you made sure that they didn’t suffer too much? Only a psychopath would think so: “It’s ok that I killed my girlfriend, your honor. After all, I slipped a painless poison pill into her drink….she didnt suffer….thus it was ok that I ended her life. Besides, we live in a horrible neighborhood…my girlfriend was probably going to end up shot to death or raped, so i saved her pain and suffering.”
Such thinking is insane, yet such thinking is exactly what we apply in the case of animals being murdered, and because of our human animal egotism, selfishness and arrogance, we allow to be done to other animals, what we would be outraged at, if it were done to US or to someone WE loved.

If it walks like it, talks like it and kills like it, call it what it is:
Hypocrisy.
Murder.

But even the strongest shadows of darkness are eventually pierced by bright rays of light, their dark void succumbing to the light of the truth, as the truth illuminates the reality beneath them.

The forecast calls for sunshine in our future. Rays of light, known as LOVE, COMPASSION, CARING and KINDNESS are scaring the truth out of even the most darkest of shadows.

The light of the truth (enlightenment) has begun to shine. It shines with groups such as BEST FRIENDS ANIMAL SOCIETY, who are slowly but surely accomplishing their goal of one day making this a world where there are “No More Homeless Pets”.
The light shines upon NEIGHBORHOOD CATS, and ALLEY CAT ALLIES, who are the foremost experts on the TNR solution, which will one day pierce the cold, dark, deadly heart of the euthanasia solution, rendering it forever impotent. How ironic, that euthanasia itself, will one day be euthanized.
The light shines upon those who have created NO-KILL SHELTERS, because they will never accept murder without guilt (euthanasia) as an option, when dealing with their fellow souls.
Why? Because the truly enlightened among us have seen the light of the truth: There IS guilt in killing healthy living souls, no matter how much we may try to convince ourselves otherwise.
The guilt is there. How can it NOT be?
It is the very unnatural act of ending a life, that forever echoes throughout our souls, because our soul was created by the very same hands that created the souls of the Animals that we wrongly murder, trying to hide our guilt with illusionary terms like “euthanize” and “humane”, rather than factual terms like “kill” or “murder”.

So, I ask you, all Animal lovers out there……. please, please spread the word:

Killing healthy Animals will no longer be tolerated!!!

NO-KILL Shelters are the only TRUE shelter, or place of refuge, for Animals.

The TNR Program is the ONLY program that effectively and humanely will solve the homeless Companion Animal problem.

Let’s live in the light of the truth. As a species, we have slept long enough, hibernating in our own ignorance. Spread the light and awaken society…..NO MORE EXCUSES, NO MORE POLITICS, NO MORE MURDERING HEALTHY LIVING BEINGS…….BEINGS THAT WERE MADE WITH THE SAME IMMORTAL, LOVING HANDS THAT MADE US….HANDS THAT MADE US TO LIVE, NOT TO BE KILLED……..HANDS THAT MADE US TO BE LOVED, NOT TO BE REJECTED AND THROWN AWAY,….. HANDS THAT WILL ONE DAY EUTHANIZE DEATH AND FOREVER ILLUMINATE LIFE, AS GOD INTENDED FROM THE START.

ONLY THE CREATOR SHOULD BE THE TERMINATOR.
TO BELIEVE ANYTHING LESS, IS TO LIVE IN THE SHADOWS.

AND WE ARE STARTING TO PREFER THE WARM RAYS OF LIGHT, INSTEAD OF THE COLD, DARK SHADOWS.
LETS CONTINUE TO FIGHT, BLEED, SWEAT, CRY AND WORK TO SEE TO IT THAT THE LIGHT WINS OVER THE DARKNESS.

LET OUR COMPANION ANIMALS SHOW US THE WAY…..FOR THEY ARE OUR ANGELS, SENT TO ENLIGHTEN US, THE SHADOW DWELLERS, WITH THE TRUTH: WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER…..ONE LOVE, ONE LIFE, ONE FAMILY, ONE SPECIES, ONE HEART, ONE SOUL.

AND WE WERE SENT TO LEARN ABOUT LOVE, HAPPINESS, KINDNESS, CARING, COMPASSION, ETC, FROM OUR ANGELS / COMPANION ANIMALS WHO MASTER SUCH HOLY QUALITIES.

Animals, like the human animal, are living, breathing, feeling, loving, soul-filled children of God.
We are all in this together.

We all get tired, we all get wet in the rain.
We all experience loneliness, we all experience pain.
We all thirst for water, and we all thirst for love.
We are all Children of God, Who’s Angels watch over us from high up above.
We all breathe, we all play, we all feel.
We all get hungry and we all appreciate a satisfying meal.
We are all born, and we all deserve to live life.
Nobody should be left behind, or be subjected to a dissecter’s deadly knife.
We all die, and we are all born into everlasting love and life in Heaven…. in paradise.
Where, as one spiritual family, we all share love, and we all get treated nice.
In Heaven, we all gather together, one species, one race, one religion, and all of us have lots of fun.
In Heaven, we all realize, that we all are really ONE.

We are all one.
One life.
One Soul.
One Spiritual Family.

If you dont kill any healthy animals, you obviously are NOT KILLING ANY HEALTHY ANIMALS. Simple common sense. By it’s very definition, NO-KILL is effective in stopping the mass extermination of cats and dogs in “shelters”. You dont have to work for NASA to understand that.

Any so called “shelter” that doesnt become no-kill, cannot call themselves a “shelter”. The term “concentration camp” is more fitting.

To anyone who supports the murdering of healthy animals in “shelters”, I have this question for you: Would it be ok if someone killed YOU?

Thank you. I didnt think that it would be. Point proven.

Stop the killing. Evolve.

There is a nook in between shelters and breeders - they are the breed rescues. If you are looking for a specific type or breed of dog but don’t want to fuel the pet stores or sadly if you have to give up a pet but are worried about the 50%-80% kill rate at most shelters contact one of these small but growing groups in your area on Petfinder.com.

One of my rescues was a Boxer /Pit mix. Sweetest dog I ever met. I just do not believe all of them are ticking time bombs anymore than all German Shepherds are. Yet sadly Bull terrier mixes are the majority of the dogs killed at the local animal shelter here. If a breed ban would help I would support it - but I think it would just make this new “outlaw” dog more desirable to bad owners. Europe is so much further along than America is with animal rights issues.

What I AM saying is that it’s easy to trash people’s opinions, motives and reputations when you haven’t the guts to sign your own name. Which you do, and which you don’t.

But this isn’t about you: It’s about finding a workable solution to help keep pets out of shelters and get those pets who are in shelters into homes.

So with that, I hope to steer the discussion back to the topic of Nathan Winograd, “Redemption” and alternatives to killing for pet population control.

Jennifer, great interview. Thanks!

I’m not an animal rights extremist, but I do believe that if pet over population is a problem, and it is, then breeders - all breeders - need to pick up their share of the load.

Growing up as a kid, before these issues were common place, I know from experience a litter of kittens is great fun. Today my cats are spayed or neutered. In other words, I’m willing to do without whatever fun I might get out of a litter of kittens, because I’m not willing to contribute to a problem that is already out of hand.

Maybe I could get away with having a litter of kittens just once in awhile, then take great care in seeing they are placed in loving homes, and promise to take them back if it doesn’t work out. Would that make me “responsible”? I don’t think so, and it’s something I gave some thought to before I had my cats altered. You know, maybe one litter would be okay before I have them fixed - or something along those lines.

My view is if the problem is anyone’s responsibility, it’s everyone’s responsibility. And, at the same time, I recognize there is a niche market for pure bred pets that isn’t easily filled from shelter inventory. If the average pet owner is willing to pick up their share of the load by not breeding their pets at all, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say breeders should accept their share of the load by conforming to temporary breeding bans when it may be appropriate to do so. For example, y’all keep the boys and girls apart for the next 6 months until things settle down.

A breeder may not be a breeder, may not be a breeder, but a kitten is a kitten is a kitten. It won’t hurt anyone that absolutely insists on having a particular kind of kitten to go on a waiting list for 6 months, and a lot of those who believe they have to have a certain kind of kitten may find one from a shelter is just as wonderful. Among other things, when supply is on the demand side, there’s a lot better chance of placing pets in homes where they will receive the best care, rather than sending them out the door with anyone having a body temperature of 98.6 just to get rid of them.

Brave Anonymous, don’t bother answering. I know who you are,

Does itchmo tolerate threats to posters? Or can Miss Spadafori
do her posting elsewhere?

No need to defend vets - they have lobbyists for that. There’s where you can make some money.

Funny thing about your assertion: I know a lot of reputable, responsible breeders, and I don’t know ANY reputable breeders who make money. NONE. That’s because responsible breeding means top-quality husbandy, top veterinary care, expensive genetic testing and lots and lots of money spent to prove your dogs at shows, agility trials, herding events, schutzhund competitions, etc., etc. None of that even begins to account for the time involved, by the way. That’s why it’s called “hobby breeding,” because you don’t make money. It’s a labor of love. Many of these same responsible breeders volunteer in breed rescue as well, cleaning up the mess of the puppy-millers and back-yard breeders.

As for veterinarians … wow, they must be stupid to go into veterinary medicine if they want to get rich. They compete for relatively few spots in veterinary schools, study medicine for eight to 10 years and end up with hundreds of thousands of dollars in student debt when they get out. If they can find a job, it’s for a salary that barely covers those debt payments and basic living expenses.

If someone wants to MAKE MONEY, they’re better off investing their college years and tuition in an MBA, computer sciences, something, anything else.

So maybe it’s that people go to veterinary school because they love animals? Hmmmm … whaddaya think?

Brave Anonymous, don’t bother answering. I know who you are, and I’m sorry that you still haven’t been able to deal with your loss and your anger. Again, perhaps therapy would be more useful than lashing out.